Health care industry marketing & tech expert Andy Greene joins us to share a chilling tale of scaling hell on this episode of the Cold Star Project with process engineering firm Cold Star Technologies founder Jason Kanigan.
Show Notes / Transcript
Jason Kanigan: 00:00 Back with another lean and mean episode of the Cold Star Project. We are talking today with health care industry tech and marketing expert, Andy Green. When I refer somebody to Andy, I tell them: Go directly to Andy; do not pass Go, do not collect $200. Do not bitch and moan. Do exactly what he says. Don’t argue and you will get a great result. We’re going to talk about a situation that Andy got into in his consultant role and I want you to listen for the triggers that indicate something needs to change. Because you’ve got a lot of tech founders out there who have created their baby, particularly in the software-as-a-service field, which this story is about. Listen for the indicators that there is a serious underlying problem and then take that to your own business, or if you’re a consultant to these kinds of folks to their businesses, and really look and listen carefully for these indicators of problems. Let’s dive right in. Our guest today is Andy Green. Andy, what do you help companies with?
Andy Greene: 01:08 I’ve helped companies grow their sales and marketing by helping them get out of their own way and giving their customers what they want.
Jason Kanigan: 01:15 Awesome. I’ll bet you meet some resistance to that.
Andy Greene: 01:20 I meet a lot of resistance. I tend to be the worst enemy for CFOs and for other people in the company who like things to be fit in a spreadsheet, and be really simple, and not match the reality of a marketplace that has a lot of foibles and quirks in it.
Jason Kanigan: 01:35 Wow. So today we’re going to dig into a story from your personal experience about trouble that a company had in scaling and what you help them with on it. Where does it start? Set the scene for us.
Andy Greene: 01:50 I was brought in as a consultant to a company, they’re a software-as-a-service company in the healthcare industry, and they had recently missed their quarterly sales goal by 50 percent. That’s where the story starts. As you can imagine, that was an interesting time to start with that company.
Jason Kanigan: 02:05 Fifty percent off the mark. Okay. In most worlds heads would roll.
Andy Greene: 02:12 It was an angry atmosphere that I walked into, I’ll tell you that.
Jason Kanigan: 02:15 That’s not great, is it? For analytics? And digging and asking people questions and finding out what’s wrong. What other activities or symptoms of problems did you run into with them at that time?
Andy Greene: 02:28 Based on my initial talks with them and spending time with them in person with their sales staff, with other people in the company, there was a lot of activity going on within the company, but it wasn’t corresponding to the results in sales. So they had an analyst, they had finance people, they had programmers, they had all this activity going on, but things weren’t moving through the pipeline. So reality was not meeting perception. That was one thing. The other thing was during the demos of the product, the sales staff, which at this point was really only a head of sales plus two salespeople, were getting a lot of feedback from customers and just disinterest in the demo. And that’s rather odd to me, but I do see it happen with companies where they just are so missing the mark on what the customers actually want, or where the market is as far as being mature, that they get a lot of disinterest in the demo. Within the demo itself, there was also confusion on what exactly the company did, a lot of basic confusion, basic points that are totally being missed and that’s where I kind of really dug into it because everything else they were describing, missing the sales, wondering what was wrong with the market, all those things, those are all symptoms of a much bigger problem at play.
Jason Kanigan: 03:37 When you see all these people on staff doing things and yet sales being kind of neglected and then completely missing the mark, right on that match-up of message to market. What were people saying to you? What kind of phrases?
Andy Greene: 03:58 The language is very interesting. It’s ah, “we have a sales summit coming up in two and a half weeks and we’re going to identify our target customers at that point.” And this is well into the company’s history, you know, this is not the first day they’re saying that. I thought that was interesting language. Other language. I’m sitting in a conference room, let me paint a picture, I’m sitting in a conference room that’s all glass so I can see everything else going on, going on, going on the floor, and there’s a lot of people just kind of what I call hanging around. They appear to be working, but they’re not actually working and I asked the guy, I was talking to the company, I said, is this normal for a Thursday afternoon? He said, well, yeah, you know, we have a few things going on, but that’s pretty normal.
Andy Greene: 04:36 So I’m thinking, Okay. We already have a little bit of corporate culture creeping into a startup, a lot of busy work, apparent busy work. Some of the other things I was told was, well, we have two people on our sales staff, their specialty is cold calling, and we just need to do more cold calls. That always sends a shiver down my spine when that is the only tool in their tool belt. There’s nothing wrong with cold calling, but you need to have more than one tool in your tool belt. Especially with as much funding as this company had gotten. The last thing I heard that was very interesting was from the investors themselves, we need to quote unquote “turn on the marketing.” I always love when people say that phrase as if it’s a magic incantation, just turn on the marketing. So those are some of the things I heard.
Jason Kanigan: 05:15 Interesting. Just turn it on. No preparation required, right?
Andy Greene: 05:22 Just flip the switch. Exactly. We’re going to give you money and just turn it on. That’s what they think it is. They just think it’s magic.
Jason Kanigan: 05:26 Yeah. I wonder what you saw when you dug into their pipeline.
Andy Greene: 05:30 Okay. This is interesting. So they did a visual pipeline on the wall in the conference room to give you an idea. They had a computer one too, but actually the visual one on the wall and what I noticed was, I’m always looking at pipelines from 80 slash 20 point of view, and I was looking and seeing, wow, there’s a lot in the beginning here. So I said to them you know this is kind of broken up into five different stages here, which I totally appreciate. You guys have an idea of how this should flow, but when I’m looking at is how it is actually flowing, and I see it stuck at the beginning. And what they kept retreating back to was, “Well our overall pipeline value is x,” and I said, that’s great, but basically you can keep putting things in the top of the funnel and keep adding to the overall pipeline value, but it won’t keep moving. And they didn’t like that
Andy Greene: 06:10 I kept pestering them on how much was in the front of the pipeline instead of how much was coming out the other side of the pipeline. They felt I was being too hard on a…they kept retreating back to that they were a startup. And I said, I totally appreciate that, but I said, we should be getting movement. They said, we have a long sales cycle. I said, they’re still should be movement in a long sales cycle. You can have movement from: “You know what? We lost that deal.” That’s movement. That’s something happening. Being stuck in the front is always a symptom of you totally missed diagnosed the market problem, solution, fit, and when you’ve done that, you’re going to have a pipeline that’s just stuck in the beginning. Clogged at the top.
Jason Kanigan: 06:46 Right, so and that’s an indicator that listeners can take away. Doesn’t matter how much value you’re giving in step four, five, six, seven of the funnel. If nobody gets past step two.
Andy Greene: 06:59 And it sounds so simple and so obvious, but these were not dumb people. These were not inexperienced people, but they were so caught up in their own story. This is something I see a lot with software-as-a-service people, they want to tell me while why their product is so good and I appreciate that and all the hard work they put in, but what I want to know is what does the market think of it? And that’s a very tough thing for them because I think a lot of those companies get really excited, and they almost put off going fully to market because they could risk failure and if they’re not willing to risk failure, they can kind of dance around with the investor’s money for maybe six months to a year, maybe two years with their nice–I think I told you about this–their nice juice bars and employee perks and everything else. And then when the whole thing burns down, you know, they just move onto the next one.
Jason Kanigan: 07:39 There are parts of the world where it’s like, how could you guys be trusted ever again after that. So the big problem here is that mismatch, right? That they weren’t solving a serious problem, that a target market agreed that they had.
Andy Greene: 07:52 Correct. What they were doing, they were six months to a year ahead of the market. And that’s always a dangerous position to be in. You know, you want to be settlers, you know, you don’t want to be pioneers. And they were trying to figure out where the market was going to go and healthcare– the danger in doing that is you’re squeezed between hospital systems and insurance companies: two ossified, huge industries that don’t like change to begin with, so when you’re trying to get both of them to change at the same time and literally change the model with which they pay people, that’s a huge problem. So they were trying to come with a novel software solution to make it easier to define the scope of a medical visit. So I’ll give you an idea. The way that they would price things out from the insurance company point of view and the way that the hospital would bill the insurance. They were trying to change all of that and you know how complicated US medicine is. Imagine trying to affect the money involved in all that. That’s what that was. This specific part of the industry, this company within it was a massive problem to begin with. A huge opportunity, but a lot of ossified, very traditional players. You’re trying to get the change very quickly. They were ahead of the market was a big problem.
Jason Kanigan: 08:59 Is there any hope in changing those attitudes? Of those underlying beliefs there? I mean, it sounds like an awful lot of work.
Andy Greene: 09:09 There is, but what I will say is even though this company had a lot of funding, they needed way, way more funding. You need almost billions of dollars over 10 to 15 years to do it correctly. And the reason why: the insurance company is naturally at odds with the hospital, so trying to get both of them to agree on something. I don’t know, it’s I, I don’t know if it’ll ever come to bear. The other problem too was when this was going on to give you an idea, this would have been 2015, so a lot of the affordable care act stuff was still being hashed out, still trying to be figured out, still being fully implemented and when you have those big regulatory changes, your whole business model can change on a dime. So they were betting on one model called Episode of Care Model and you’re making a big bet on something that could be totally wiped out by something they do in Washington. So it’s a dangerous place to build a business. I’ll tell you that happened.
Jason Kanigan: 10:00 I was reading something this morning. An interesting quote about automation. If you’re automating a bad process, all you’re doing is ensuring that you do a bad job every time, but you can do it faster and with less effort than before. I love that quote and it kind of fits in here. I’ll bet you they wanted more demos, right? Let’s just do more demos.
Andy Greene: 10:27 Oh, “we need to get more people on the phone. We need to do more demos. We need more sales staff to do demos. We need more cold callers to get those demos scheduled.” That was all. They were like dogs with red meat, like that’s what they wanted and I was the contrarian in the room saying what’s going to be in the demo? What are the questions people are asking about? Do they even pay attention during the demos? You know, very uncomfortable questions, but what I was trying to get at was there’s no real interest from your market. You need to figure out a different business model that they had spent millions in investor money in building a platform that no one was ready for. No one wanted. That was the… That’s kind of the embarrassing part. Lots of software-as-a-service startups do that. Invest all this money as the sunk cost fallacy of well we’re already this far and they don’t realize it doesn’t matter how far you are, it’s how far away you are from the market. That’s the problem. You’re too far away from what they actually want. You need to back up and start over. That’s uncomfortable.
Jason Kanigan: 11:20 Tell us more about the solution that you came up with in this very difficult situation.
Andy Greene: 11:25 What I was trying to do was reframe their efforts because I understood that they had millions invested. They had investors breathing down their neck, so we needed to do something with that sales staff. We needed to do something with those resources, so what I told them to do upfront, as I said, stop showing demos. And you would’ve thought I said a curse word. It was just like. They’re like, what? And I said, stop showing the demos. I said, for very simple reason, they’re not ready for it yet. Stop asking people if they want to meet for the demo. No one in their right mind wants to meet for Demos. They want to solve problems. So stop asking them to that. Instead, use your time and your networks on LinkedIn because at this time you gotta remember LinkedIn still was not oversaturated in 2015. Now it’s pretty saturated, but 2015
Andy Greene: 12:09 It was there. It was really a great way to get some really high level decision makers. You can still do that on LinkedIn, but at that point in time was even better. I said, you used Linkedin, use your existing sales staff, if you want to cold call people and just have conversations with people. What problems are you having? What are you trying to solve? What’s your budget focused on? The specific plan I gave them was create a list of all the target segments in the industry and the problems associated with each segment, so okay. Mid Atlantic insurance executives, Western hospital executives, different market segments, different potential target markets. Take each one of those and then value rank them. What’s the severity of the problems they have, the budgets allocated currently to solving that problem, speed to implement solutions for each one of them and the overall size of that segment.
Andy Greene: 12:53 Do that with each one of those and have those conversations with people in which you’re going to find naturally it’s an 80 / 20 distribution on. There is one segment that’s going to stand out and it’s going to be the first place you need to start. Now they may not want what you’re selling, but you’re going to find a very severe problem that already has budgets attached to it that’s ready to go and has enough size to support growing company like they want to grow it. So do that and you will save yourself so much time. So that was, that was my initial recommendation to them is back up, reassess the market, figure out where the actual problem is and go and work on that.
Jason Kanigan: 13:30 And you’re going to get a struggle with that, aren’t you?
Andy Greene: 13:32 Uh, they, they were not fans of that. I will say what I will say is we went back and forth on that over a several week period. And by the time they were supposed to have their quote unquote sales summit. And I don’t know what you do at sales summit to be honest, because they, they were nowhere close to being ready to have a sales summit is my point and they ultimately had immense pressure to make money and they just continued to do what they did. A couple of months later, the CEO, the head of sales and several executives were all fired. So to your point, heads will roll. Well, they rolled. Sure enough, I just, I got them a little bit of a stay of execution and then they went. They went rolling down the hill. Yep.
Jason Kanigan: 14:10 The process that you just talked about, about listing the target segments that that’s about kind of figuring out where your best bang for your buck is on effort and then that match of message to market. Could they have taken what they had already made and somehow adapted it to solving a problem that some target segment actually said, hey, we have this here and we’re willing to pay for a solution, or would they have to start over from scratch?
Andy Greene: 14:38 They wouldn’t necessarily have to start over from scratch. That’s a great point. One of the things I pointed out to them was an option you can always do when you have built up that type of intellectual property and you have invested time in a platform is define a company in the space who is slightly larger than you, slightly farther along who is trying to solve the same problem you are literally try and get bought by that company. So I suggested to them that as a secondary course of action. That didn’t match what their investors wanted, but it’s a great point because there are large insurance companies, who were trying to figure out that Episodes of Care angle and didn’t have the technology portion fully implemented because they’re such big companies. That takes two to three years to even get rolling on a project like this. Whereas these guys were a startup, they had enough programmers to have a pretty solution, was not bad that they had built. I will say that, so that’s a great point you make of they could have been acquired by slightly larger company trying to solve the same problem, but you gotta remember these guys were like a lot of startups. They wanted to rule the world. They didn’t want to compromise their values and that was to their own detriment.
Jason Kanigan: 15:45 Flexibility is important. This has been a cautionary tale for especially, I think for saas founders. The number one problem that I’ve seen over the years with saas is founders going out there and investing time and money and energy, creating an idea in isolation because they had a brainwave and then trying to bring it to market and discovering nobody wants the thing.
Andy Greene: 16:11 Exactly. That’s been my experience too.
Jason Kanigan: 16:13 What can people do? What can saas founders who are listening do to avoid that problem?
Andy Greene: 16:20 They have to do something they’re really uncomfortable with because a lot of people who start saas companies tend to be at least have a little bit of a technical side to them. Even if they themselves aren’t that they’re going to have a technical cofounder and that tends to mean they like to sit in rooms and type on computers. That usually means they don’t love to go out and talk to a lot of people, but I will tell you that fear of going out and talking to a lot of people is much less scary than spending five years on your life and building a product no one wants. Let me give you some specific strategies. What you need to do instead of focusing on the solution, what you think the solution is, don’t go out talking to people and ask them what the solution should be. Just start talking to them about the problems they have and the budgets attached to those problems.
Andy Greene: 17:04 Don’t solve problems that there aren’t already budgets attached to period. You don’t want to become–you don’t need to be a Steve Jobs. You don’t need to invent a new industry. All you need to do is solve problems that already have budgets attached to them. Your, your solution can be novel, but you need to do that. So how do I go about doing that? Cause I always hear people say go do these things. They never tell you the tactics. LinkedIn in is still my number one tool to do that. Just connecting with people, reading their profiles, scheduling five minute calls and get to know you calls does so much and people will tell you things you never think they would just by doing that. The other thing that’s key: If you are starting a saas and you want to get rolling, you think you have a good solution…
Andy Greene: 17:41 Build the simplest, dumbed down Photoshop, MVP product you can. The one that makes your designer partner just absolutely cringe, because your target market doesn’t care about that right away; what they care about is you solving the problem. So if you can say, hey, we’re thinking of building this. What do you think of it? If they said to you, it’s crap, that’s fine. You spent two hours in photoshop. You didn’t spend $100,000 on programmers, database solutions and all this other stuff. The third thing I would say saas companies need to do email marketing is your best friend here. Use all the tools available for cold email marketing because it allows you to get a broad spectrum of people and you can send out simple emails. You don’t need to send out emails like announcing our company and this is what we’re going to do now. Simple emails of Do you guys have a problem with your marketing automation tools?
Andy Greene: 18:28 Yes or No, You’ll get people say, oh yeah, I hate Infusionsoft. Okay, what don’t you like about Infusionsoft? And then they’ll say, well, who are you? Oh, we’re thinking of building alternative to Infusionsoft that’ll do this, this and this. You’re, you might get some people who will buy your product before it’s even ready or at least get on a waiting list to buy it. That’s been my experience with cold email and with linkedin. So that’s what I’d recommend people do. Don’t build. Don’t worry about building. You can build later. Ruthlessly disprove the idea first. That’s what’s so uncomfortable.
Jason Kanigan: 18:56 That is very opposite to the thinking of most founders who are so in love with the idea that, uh, that they’ll die for it. Like we just saw in the cautionary tale we went through.
Andy Greene: 19:09 And I will say to those people all the time because yeah, as you can imagine, I butt heads with them because they don’t love me bringing that message to them, but I say to them, look, you can do whatever you want. Come back to me in six months and tell me how it’s going, and most of them come back and say, Andy, we spent $2,000,000 and we did this. It didn’t work out, and I say, “I know, because it’s a numbers game. Most companies won’t work. Most solutions won’t work. What would have happened had you taken my advice is you would have figured that out in two weeks.”
Jason Kanigan: 19:33 This is definitely a case where having some funding will work against you.
Andy Greene: 19:38 It really does. Jay Abraham says this so well. He says, what will you do with the funding? Most people can’t explicate that well enough and that’s the problem. They think money solves problems. Money can scale solutions. Money can make things happen quicker. If you fundamentally don’t have a business model that meets a bleeding neck problem that has a budget attached to it, all the money in the world will just go down a pit.
Jason Kanigan: 20:00 Right. Yeah. We see this all the time in Facebook ads for example, you can. You can blow thousands and thousands of dollars in Facebook ads.
Andy Greene: 20:07 It’s so true. You’ll enjoy this Jason, about Facebook ads. So my partner and I do Facebook ads in the healthcare space and we had a guy yesterday say to me, Facebook ads is saturated. I said, well, if it’s saturated then my clients are making a lot of money in a saturated market. And what that is is a lot of people read blogs, talk to local marketing agencies, and think they have an understanding of how this works. And this is one of the flaws with the case study you and I were talking about, this saas company. They had a marketing agency, Jason, but they paid them $70,000 for a logo. That was the expertise of the marketing agency, branding and design, which that’s the part of it, but they had no idea about target audience development. Had no idea about cold email, they had no idea about funnel development and this is the problem when
Andy Greene: 20:53 you’re a founder: you have enough things to do already. You hire a marketing person, you hire a marketing agency and you assume they know what they’re doing and about two to six months later, you find out they don’t and you’ve wasted a ton of money and then you get this thing in your head where you say marketing doesn’t work, we need to do something else. And I see that a lot in saas companies. The sales people yell at the marketing people; marketing yells at sales. I just want qualified opportunities. Well we sent them to. No you didn’t. Back and forth, back and forth. It’s because usually the head of marketing is usually the least favorite executive on the executive team because they usually are held to the least amount of standards. It’s a brutal thing to say, I know, but like marketing is kind of the red headed stepchild in most companies, especially in startups and it’s well deserved because a lot of marketers and marketing companies don’t quantify what they do. So some other advice for saas founders listening to this: hire marketers that deliver results and you hold them accountable as far as their pay on results. I know it sounds stupidly simple, but so many companies don’t do that. They just hire and put them on retainer just to have them. Correlate it to results. Simple.
Jason Kanigan: 21:58 Does this attitude have to come down from the top? [Andy: It really does.] If you’re working for one of these companies, do you have any hope?
Andy Greene: 22:09 I don’t want to crush their dreams, but no, and here’s been my experience. Here’s why I say it’s a qualified no, it could be possible. Here’s why not. What will happen is you will get an arc of success. You will start moving up the ladder thinking you’re making things happen and then all of a sudden there’s going to be a slow down and it’s kind of slow, slow, slow, and the momentum is going to start going downward, downward, downward because either the executive team doesn’t understand the value of what you’re doing with marketing or the value of results based stuff, or they have another agenda and that is what I’ve always run into. Oftentimes a CEO, COO like to be insulated from a lot of this type of stuff. The CMO does the insulating. So the CMO, will brought in like a Roman emperor winning a battle.
Andy Greene: 22:55 I’m coming to free you all and then six months later he’s run out of town and then the next guy comes in and says things are going to be different with me. I’m going to lead the way, and then he’s out six months later and they’re just used to that rotating door for the CMO. So unless the CEO says, we’re not going to play games anymore, we’re going to do this right, we’re going to solve the problem first. We’re going to figure out exactly what people want. We’re going to put a budget behind it, we’re going to stick with it thick through thin, but we’re going to quantify it, measure it and not use any of these vanity metrics. We’re going to look profit out the other end and we’re going to hold the CMO accountable to that. It is really hard because otherwise here’s what happens in the meeting.
Andy Greene: 23:28 CEO goes, how is marketing going? And they give him a bunch of BS vanity metrics. He says, okay, moving onto the next important thing. He doesn’t want to waste time because he just knows, oh, we needed to do marketing. I’ll check that box, I’ll move on. So you really need that leadership from the CEO, from the top, even from the investors and investors can be the worst culprits of this, of demanding instant results when no marketing has been done. It can be quick, but you got to give a little bit of time and you do need that leadership from the top because otherwise you’re forever going to be fighting against that. It’s sad, but it’s what I’ve seen.
Jason Kanigan: 23:57 Well, I appreciate that very clear, unequivocal answer that I agree with it. Boy, getting people to commit leaders to commit and buy into objective measurements and sticking to that can be…
Andy Greene: 24:14 Let me give you a story on that if you’d like. It’s very, it’s very, uh, illuminating. I was called into an market agency several years ago now. A different company, but same problem. I always run the same problem and I’m brought in at the very end. They’re doing the essentially the demo day on the new website. So I’m sitting there quietly. We had the CEO, the COO and the marketing agency. The marketing agency is just so happy to show this website and they’re showing it on the big screen and we’re all looking and everyone’s oohing and ahhing. And I just raised my hand towards the end and then go, what exactly does your company do? And the CEO goes, what do you mean? I said, well, if I read the top of your website, it’s just a giant picture that keeps going by. It’s not obvious. He said, oh, that’s an interesting point. So it kind of looks the marketing agency head and well, why don’t we have that up there?
Andy Greene: 24:59 I said, okay, hang on one second. What, what am I supposed to do once I know what your company does, I don’t see a phone number, I don’t see a button, and he goes, well wait a minute, where’s that? And the marketing agency is just shooting at me with her eyes because she’s like, why are you bringing these questions up now? It’s not your job. And then the CEO gets really mad, but then he says to me, where has Andy been this whole time? Why am I just meeting him? His questions are so simple, but he’s right. He’s like, why is no one brought this to my attention? So to get buy in from chief executive officers, CEOs: brutal honesty. Now if you’re working for this company but like, well, I don’t want to do that because I might get fired. I always coming from a consultant point of view, so that’s the one I can speak from.
Andy Greene: 25:40 If you’re within a company, it doesn’t have to be brutal honesty. You don’t have to offend them, but you need to make the point clear. Trying to cover up, hide, even outright lie to the executive team is not a great way to get buy in. It’s best to be honest about what the problem is. Treat them as adults and say, here’s our problem, here’s our solution, here’s how much it’s gonna cost. You make the decision accordingly and if you have a good CEO, they’re going to give you a fair hearing. If you have a bad ceo, not much you can do about it .
Jason Kanigan: 26:08 And you probably don’t want to stick around, really.
Andy Greene: 26:10 Exactly, and that should be your sign. If you’re bringing a logical results-based marketing program and they’re against it, that means they have other metrics, other agendas, and you probably need to move to another company because those companies won’t last for long over the next really 10 to 15 years because results-based people are always going to be able to move quicker, get things done, put more money back into marketing, and literally run the other companies out of out of business. So yeah, you want to move to someone who gets it instead of trying to get your company to get it again.
Jason Kanigan: 26:43 Awesome. Well, everyone listening, flip all this stuff around in the opposite direction and you’ll get a positive experience, okay?
Andy Greene: 26:48 That’s how I always work, Jason, is tell me what not to do and I’ll just avoid that and I should be okay.
Jason Kanigan: 26:54 Our guest today has been Andy Green. Andy, how can people connect with you, those who are brave enough to do it?
Andy Greene: 27:01 Sure. I’m actually a really nice guy. Just ask tough questions. Andy at Andy Green Dot com let me just spell it out andy at a n d y g r e e n e Dot Com.
Jason Kanigan: 27:12 Alright. Thanks a lot for being here and sharing your story.
Andy Greene: 27:16 Alright, thanks so much Jason.