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Steven Peijl Interview – Scaling from 7 to 8 Figures

CTO of Kyvio (know your visitors inside out) Steven Peijl joins Jason Kanigan to share the power of processes in scaling from 7 to 8 figures. You can’t simply be doing “double of the same” to make a leap like that: you must be doing different things and things differently. By recording your process steps, you achieve consistency…and there is a way to get conformity in results without killing innovation.

Show Notes / Transcript

Jason Kanigan: 00:00 We are back with the Cold Star Project, lean and mean, in our search for the truth about the struggles of scaling tech businesses. Today we’re talking with Steven Peijl, the CTO of a company called Kyvio. Kyvio is an interesting company: it is a software as a service that is scaling and they have galloped past seven figures in revenue. They’re going towards eight and that’s what we’re going to dig into today with Steven. How do you do it? What are the things that you need? You know in politics there’s a saying that “the people who got you here aren’t the people who are going to take you to the next level.” Right, and I believe this is true in the world of tech. The systems and the processes and the things that you did to get you where you are today are not the things that you just simply need to be doing more of to get to the next level.

Jason Kanigan: 00:52 So what does it take to move from seven to eight figures as you’re scaling and a tech firm? Now I want you to listen for a couple things. Okay? As we go through this and we listened to what Steven has to say, one of the main things which I think will come as a shock to many tech founders, especially those who have not reached that seven figure level, is this the thing that you are so excited about, your baby, that product is not actually what investors or those who maybe want to buy out your firm, are interested in. You’re probably in for a big surprise here, so watch for that. The second thing to listen for is the deliberateness that you need at this level. This is not about sudden innovation or inspiration striking anymore. This is about one word: consistency. So let’s dive in with Steven,

Jason Kanigan: 01:47 find out what the answers are to these questions. How do you scale from seven to eight figures? We are back for another sharp cutting episode of the Cold Star Project. Our guest today is Steven Peijl from Kyvio, a platform that allows you to know your visitors inside and out. Steven, thanks for being here, really appreciate it. Steven is the tech master behind this growth and what we want to do today is dig into moving from seven figures in revenue. As many of our viewers are at, they have flown into say, the 2 million revenue figure and found that money does not solve all the problems. In fact, it can enable you to screw up faster. So how do you get from seven figures to eight figures, and that’s what we’re going to dig into today. Steven, let’s begin with a simple question. What do we need to get from seven to eight figures? What’s the the essence of it?

Steven Peijl: 02:48 For me, and it’s obviously all what I’m saying is based on my personal opinion, we are definitely on the way getting to the eight figures, and for me it’s all about repeatable, predictable

Steven Peijl: 03:00 processes.

Jason Kanigan: 03:02 Delightful. Let’s assume that we’ve got a tech founder who’s very familiar with coding, right? The sort of nitty gritty about, okay, how do I make a product and get it sold and okay, now I’m making some revenue of, whoa, that really suddenly took off. Now what, right? And then has hit a bunch of speed bumps? What do you mean by processes? Let’s describe what that looks like.

Steven Peijl: 03:25 A process is basically just a flow of steps. So if I get a little bit technical you create a task. It could be either a feature task, you’re creating new feature or a block task, right? And the process of handling that particular task, that is your, your steps. So first step is let’s say a new feature. So first step is that the coder codes it locally on their local, the local environment, second step as they go and push it on the q and a servers, it gets tested and then it gets code reviewed then it goes to development server. It gets tested again with some regression testing. Then it goes to staging: on staging it get tested again with more aggression testing, a use case testing. And from there it gets into your release candidate. Release candidate gets all pushed together and it goes to production. That is a process from start to finish. In my writings in the example that I just gave you, that’s obviously a very technical one, but the same can be applied to anything. So marketing as well, which is incredibly important. Like when we talk in process from going from seven to eight figures, it’s not just your technical processes that need to be well defined and simple as well, but also your marketing needs to be that same way. Like you need to have your processes there as well. If you don’t have predictable income, if you don’t have a predictable way to acquire new customers, you don’t know those numbers, you’re not going to get to eight figures in my opinion.
Jason Kanigan: 04:59 So. Okay, so before we get, I mean obviously there’s–we’re going to dig into this a little bit. There’s going to be a process actually of mapping out processes, right? That we’re going to get to before you get there, what needs to be in place, what needs to happen or be taken care of beforehand before you even get around to thinking about, okay, now I need to map out processes.

Steven Peijl: 05:19 That’s a good question. I’m not an easy one. Uh, I think what needs to happen before you start with your processes is that you have a team, you have a proper angle, and proper audience for your product obviously. And uh, you need to know your business model: you need to prove your business model first because software is a liability. Software is not an asset. It’s always first about the business model. Have you tested the business model, does it work? And then once it’s proven, but you know, when you’re at seven figures, it’s definitely proven, then you start automating the *s-beep!* out of everything basically. And that’s what software is all about: automating and making it faster.

Jason Kanigan: 06:09 Heh self-beeps himself. I want to dig into what you said there about software being a liability. Can you explain more about what you mean by that? And are you talking about like apps and things like that that you’re buying to help you?

Steven Peijl: 06:23 As well, but also your own software. It’s not an asset, it’s a liability. No. Well there’s exceptions always, but most of the companies that get bought out by another company, by Google or whatever, they don’t buy you because of your software or the product you’ve created. They buy you because of your customer list, your email list, your, uh, yeah, everything around that. Basically your business model, that’s what they’re buying. Not particularly technology; yes, there’s exceptions where some startups–extremely high technology, where a big company like Google will buy you out for your technology–but still in those cases they actually don’t even buy that company for their technology that they’ve already developed. They will buy you out to get your people, because obviously your people are very high quality and that’s why they buy you out. So I think that’s really important there.

Jason Kanigan: 07:19 OK. So this is I think a topic that a lot of tech founders would be a little bit like, they don’t want to look at that, right? Because they, they came in to change the world and own the world, right. And make this solution and they’re really in love with that solution that they’re making. Right. But as you say, the customer list, which is a niche, little niche market, right, is the most valuable thing probably that you have because it’s leveragable. If I know that that group of people is there and they will buy this, that’s–I can sell them other stuff, right, related stuff over and over and over again. So

Steven Peijl: 07:54 Yeah and it’s the business model in the end, like, what they buy is your business model that you have proven by then, and the customers that come with it.

Jason Kanigan: 08:03 Right. And they are dropping their cost of customer acquisition like a stone.

Steven Peijl: 08:08 Yes, exactly. Because they look at the big picture. For them, like making an investment for oh a few million, 10 million, 20 million, $30, million dollars is nothing based on their budget. So they’re like, they just do the math. Like, oh, if we buy them out, we have that business model, it’s proven already. We will have the customer acquisition cost and the churn and everything and we can just do the math on that and you know it’s going to be super cheap for them, basically. That’s the whole thing. And for business owners it’s always about the product, right? Because that’s the baby, but you’re not selling the baby: you’re selling everything that the baby produces…I’m not sure that’s a great example…

Jason Kanigan: 08:45 or around the baby: the crib and the rattle and things like that

Steven Peijl: 08:49 the load around the baby. That’s it.

Jason Kanigan: 08:52 So yeah, if we could get that across our listeners, that’d be cool because it will make you into a more astute business owner. I believe you may think about selling when you didn’t before. You may realize what your value is that you didn’t before. You may think about acquiring other companies as you grow. If you, if you become successful. It’s interesting how surgical or emotionless what you’re describing is, right, because it’s the opposite as you say, of the founder who is, Oh, I’ve created this beautiful thing and I love it. Then: No, actually it’s just about math when you get to the higher levels, right?

Steven Peijl: 09:35 Yeah. It’s easier said than done obviously because you know, I’m not gonna lie, I’m very attached to what we’re building as well. But I think it’s necessary, because that’s how you attract your people and you know, that’s what it’s about in the end. Like that’s the thing, like the love for your product, attracts your audience, and what you’re selling in the end is your audience.

Jason Kanigan: 09:56 Hm. So hopefully a little bit of a mind shift for people watching or listening. Okay. So let’s say we’ve got our business model down pat, we understand it, we know we put x amount into marketing, we make two x back or one point five or 10 x or something, who knows, right? But at least we know what it is and it’s predictable and profitable. We’ve hit that two plus million dollar mark in revenue. Things are flying but we’re overwhelmed because, as founders discover, there’s so many different places they could expand into: strategic initiatives that lead to tactical initiatives that need to be done. And these are always changing. What mattered a quarter ago doesn’t matter now, right, as you’ve grown into the next phase. But one of the things that is majorly important and effective in regaining a sense of control over what’s going on is mapping out these processes, right? What do you use to map these processes?

Steven Peijl: 10:59 Mostly mind maps, actually. So, um, what we’ve been doing lately, so we are a funnel building company and one thing we realized is–I’ve seen this with a lot of friends that also do a lot of funnels as well: Yeah, we have a funnel here. We have a funnel there, we have a funnel there, and one over there, you know, this one works, but this one doesn’t really work, so we probably should shut it down, but that’s not a strategical direction. Like where are you, why you really need to have a mind shift in my opinion, to go from seven to eight figures is strategical decisions for typical overview of everything and that’s what we’ve been working on very hard for about six, seven months now is to create an all encompassing strategy for our funnels. There’s other parts of the business that need the same, of course. We’re calling it the unified funnel strategy just to give it a nice name now, but it’s basically, it’s not just about the small funnels, you know, uh, for example, you know, you have a Lead Gen page, then you have a sales page and upsell page and a downsell page.

Steven Peijl: 12:02 That’s like a micro funnel to me. What I’m talking about is customer value journey funnels like big ones, a funnel that takes months for somebody to go to, like start at a blog post. Then you send them a bunch of emails, then you know, you, you go on all the way. And what we’re doing right now is we’re creating a strategy to have all those funnels, not every direction, but all pointing in the same one direction for the company growth and with the same concepts, what they’re based on. So the process of grading that particular strategy, like I said, it’s like six, seven months in the works already. So it’s not something that you just, you know, just create and uh, I think it’s based on experience and understanding your own business model and we’re also looking at your own company, at your own branding. Who are we? Who do we really serve? I mean really serve? I mean one year, seven figures, you kind of know who you’re serving, but I almost always guarantee you there’s a second level below that. They’re really getting to know your people and, uh, about behaviors, about what they still really want, doing a lot of interviews. That’s really what we’re doing right now as well. And then there’s creating. Well, the the tool I’ve used was a mind map and I think the mind map is really helpful there.

Jason Kanigan: 13:21 That’s interesting. I love the strategic level that you’re applying to the customer value journey and applying it to your funnel so that there’s consistency there, right? That’s what we’re talking about here is achieving consistency. In our company, Cold Star, I will send an agent. We often work with clients who have a physical location, right? And and so sometimes we’ll do this with digital companies and that will do. We’ll do that with a lot of phone work, but physical manufacturing let’s say, I will send an agent there and they will flow chart. There’s, there’s symbols that you can use, and software to do that, and we will flow chart those processes. And that’s a process in of itself of walking around and interviewing people and talking to them and then also fact checking because what they say is not always what actually happens and you’re nodding vigorously. Even in the digital world that things always don’t turn out the way that they’re said to be. So you got to check, right? It’s that trust but verify sort of concept. So, so mind map is interesting. That’s a different way of thinking about it than I have thought about it before. So it’s kind of like to see that.

Steven Peijl: 14:34 Yeah, flowcharts are definitely very interesting and we use them for specific technical processes, but I’ve never actually applied flowcharts for more strategical or marketing processes. Might be interesting to try out. The reason why we are using the mind maps, why I went with that, is because I think it’s easier for the staff, the employees of the marketing sites particularly to implement that so they can just kind of follow the mind map of what they need to do. So it becomes like, I’m not sure if that’s correct English, but fill out exercise like oh yeah, I need this. Okay, so click click click. Oh here are the tools I need to do, and then it’s just like, oh yeah, just applying basically.

Jason Kanigan: 15:18 Right, and so, conceptually. Yeah. You’re getting them into the right headspace. This is interesting because it goes back to what you say about software being a liability. The tools you use, are–they’re a form of abstraction, right? They’re filtering the world around you and you’re kind of stuck with the way that the tool enables you to filter. So this is why the, the mindmap idea is interesting to me because it’s a different way of filtering than a flow chart. Right? It’s much more conceptual than a step by step. Okay? ABC One, two, three.

Steven Peijl: 15:50 And it looks less science-y, looks less complicated. It’s less overwhelming for, for a nontechnical person, like I love looking at flowcharts and they make sense to me, but a marketing person, they go like, what is all these weird thingies mean? I don’t understand all this. So mind map is just way easier to understand in that kind of sense.
Jason Kanigan: 16:09 Very cool. So who can we trust to do a good job of documenting these kinds of processes? Because it doesn’t sound like just anybody–you know, in, in, um, one of the things I’ve seen over the years many times is this idea that the worst programmer is the one that they get to do the documentation for it. [Crosstalk] That’s terrible. So who can we trust to do a good job of documenting this stuff?

Steven Peijl: 16:37 The business owner and not particularly the owner of the business, but the person who owns that part of the business, who is responsible. So it definitely needs to be a higher level person. Like in this particular example I was giving before I did it as the CTO, I did it and it was funny because my partner, he’s actually really good at marketing and selling and stuff, but he’s not as organized, not as process-oriented as I am because I’m a very logical thinker. Right. And I need it. When I showed this to him, I think I needed to explain it like or three times for him to fully understand the flow. And that’s also a good test, you know, like actually this on this very particular subject, I just had an event last weekend where I did a talk about this exact thing as well. And uh, so at the end I asked some friends like, was it clear in the end because you know, I know this is all just in my habit for me, this is all like straight forward.

Steven Peijl: 17:35 But does it make sense when I explain it. And most of them, yeah, with the visuals that really helped. So I did the same with my partner. I basically did like a mini presentation for him online just with Zoom as well. And then he’s like, oh yeah, now I started getting it. Now when I see it now it all starts making sense and connecting. Definitely C-level people or if you have a really good project manager, uh, I think they should be able to do the same as well.

Steven Peijl: 18:01 Right. And people can also hire a Cold Star agent to come out.

Steven Peijl: 18:02 Or that.

Jason Kanigan: 18:07 Ah, okay. Now that we have the processes documented, they need to be enforced. And–because if we get deviation we don’t have consistency. Right? And then sometimes it works brilliantly and sometimes it falls down on its face. And I think we would all agree we would rather have something that works at 80 percent consistently than something that’s 120 percent, 10 percent of the time and 20 percent, 50 percent of the time and the rest, maybe it’s somewhere in between. Right? So who should be enforcing these standards?

Steven Peijl: 18:43 Everybody! I think that’s the only way to really enforce anything. Uh, there will always be a lot of repetition and repeating and reminding people about it. Uh, but yeah, like for, for the technical part should be lead developers, project managers, but also senior developers like everybody should remind everybody all the time because it needs to become a habit basically. So without stigmatizing too much, it also depends on what kind of people you have in your company. And I’m actually going the opposite direction. Like if you have a lot of high level thinkers, like really smart people that think on their own, they actually might not be the best people for following instructions that closely because they start adding their own kind of little bit of salt, little bit of pepper. And like I do that. Like I never really followed the instructions. I always have to add my own stuff, which is not always the best thing, especially when you’re just starting with it, with a new process or whatever.

Steven Peijl: 19:38 And you know, there’s other people that often are cheaper as well that are always this. Every time they start their computer and do a particular task, like for example, marketing called the marketing, or you should know that they go through the process, they started, they go to your Internet and they open up your SOPs and they just go step one. They do what Step One does. Then they go step two, step three, etc. etc. And then you actually get the real predictable repeatable outcomes from your SOPs and if you have all the smart people like, oh no, I’m going to try something here. I’m going to try something there, you know, then you won’t get those predictable, uh, outcomes, which are really important in my opinion. And yes, there’s a time to test, to experiment, but you have to also plan the experiment. You have to know when the experiment starts and what you’re gonna do. Create a hypothesis–my English sucks. Sorry, but you know, and then see what happens. And if it improved, yeah, sure. Change the SOP, but don’t just do that in, out of the blue basically.

Jason Kanigan: 20:45 So what I’m hearing build it into your company culture that, look, this is where we refer to. It’s, it’s over there, everybody knows and uh, and we do need to check through. You can use software, there’s project management software that can map out these things and okay, now I have to check off that I did this and it’s documented that I did it and I’m responsible for it. With dependencies as well: I can’t proceed to step two unless I’ve done step one. So this problem has been solved. You can go get software to do this now. I like what you brought up about different kinds of people. A behavioral profiling system like DISC or Myers-Briggs or something will show up who is what, and then you can kind of maybe hire accordingly or at least know what you’ve got. Right. Here are the cards in my hand, right, that I can play and okay, this guy is, he’s a high I maybe in the DISC profile and he’s just not going to follow the rules, and come up with his own ideas, and that’s okay; I know this.

Jason Kanigan: 21:50 So either I really have to stand over him and make sure that he’s conforming or what I would rather do is bottle that creativity somehow and say, okay, let’s give you the playground to play in, but let’s define it as you say. That’s between two and 3:00, you’re going to be working on your own stuff or spend some time and work on what you believe is innovative. Or maybe you come up with a different series of steps in the process, but at least write down what you’re doing and that’s key, right? You don’t want to blow past it, get a good result, and then go, okay, how did you do it? Well, I dunno, I just did it. Oh dear. We didn’t learn anything. Right? So it’s, it’s fine to have innovation. And in fact there is a phrase that I’ve seen many times: standard operating procedures or best practices are the enemy of innovation. You don’t get anything new by playing in the same lanes, right? So there’s room for everybody in an organization. But the key thing here is to measure, be clear about what you’re doing. Have most of the people, most of the time adhering to all the standards and then just some of the time under very clear rules about, okay, at least map out what you did. Go and play and create something new.

Steven Peijl: 23:13 Yeah, there’s nothing worse than having success but not knowing how you got there. You’re better off failing and knowing why you failed than having success and not knowing why you had success.

Jason Kanigan: 23:28 Right. I mean that defies the idea of consistency that we were looking for. That’s the reason we’re doing this in the first place. Right? mapping out our processes and trying to capture what makes us successful and repeat it and scale it. So let me ask you a question here that is probably going to rattle a lot of our listeners, at least the answer to it because they’re so embedded in the thing, uh, that again, like I was saying about the software colors your view of the world that you’re using, the tools that you use when you start walking around with a hammer. Okay, yeah, I got the claw and I got the hammer and now I’m going to look for things to beat on or pull nails out of or something. When should technology be applied? When is it best applied?

Steven Peijl: 24:14 After you’ve proven your business model. I think because you know, like, yeah, that’s going back. Like software is a liability. It’s not an asset. The asset you have are your people, your business model and your SOPs. SOPs are a huge asset. If you want to like have some friends of mine, Empire Flippers, they do a lot of–not big business yet, like mid range businesses. They are basically like a marketplace and they like people go to sell their business and other people buy them and if you want to have a higher multiple on your business, uh, then, uh, the buyer’s going to look on how SOPed your business is. The more SOPs you have, the better structure that is, the higher your multiple is going to be.

Steven Peijl: 25:03 The technology is applied after you’ve proven your business model and after, well kind of during your creation of your SOPs because you know SOP is not just a one moment thing. SOPs are living documents of course, like some people forget about it. That’s why I kind of disagree with you. Uh, well you, you weren’t saying it as an opinion, but like with the whole SOPs are the enemy of innovation. I don’t believe that because that’s just approaching an SOP as a set thing. Like, oh yeah, you have your SOP, that’s your approach, but it is not. It’s a living document. It should be updated regularly. It should, it should be feedback loops in that process again of grading your SOPs and then you actually do great innovation but slow and steady and predictable and repeatable innovation.

Jason Kanigan: 25:53 Right. I love it. I love it. One of the big challenges that I personally have experienced in scaling a business is that feedback loop idea. Sometimes either we’ve discovered there’s either no feedback loop set in for a process that we felt was documented or that the loop was so long, like we didn’t discover there was a problem until two weeks later, or a month later or something. What can people do to shorten that feedback loop and ensure that it’s plugged in there?

Steven Peijl: 26:25 It’s a difficult thing. Honestly, I don’t think I have a real gut answer there, because it’s a concept we struggle with as well. I think it’s being on top of it and I think again, it’s kind of responsibility of the higher level managers, C-level managers to ask for feedback. Like sometimes it depends on your company culture. We still trying to prove that people are coming with it to us but a lot of the time you have to pull it out of them and like What’s wrong? Tell me, tell me like you can kind of create maybe a weekly or biweekly setting, like a team meeting either digitally or in person. Of course I like, yeah guys, what’s wrong? Why is it wrong. Tell me like you need to really know and sometimes it is actually good to kinda stand over somebody’s shoulder and see what they’re doing to see some. Get some feedback from that point of view, but it’s definitely a difficult. Yeah, I think the feedback loops are one of the most difficult problems to tackle for sure.

Jason Kanigan: 27:26 OK, I’m glad to hear that. So if you’re listening, feedback loops are probably going to be a challenge and don’t be too disappointed when you stumble with them repeatedly and go–I don’t know how many times this has happened and I’ve shaken my head and gone–Why? Why haven’t we learned? Why–are we stupid? No, we’re not. This stuff is is challenging. So technology is to be applied after you’ve gotten the process written down in, in a, in English or in a language, right? A local language that you’re using. Right? Then you go and find the glue. It’s like I gave, I shared this analogy before we got on, of imagine buying a model airplane and as soon as you, without test fitting, as soon as you snapped the parts off, you just stick the glue on and glue them together. You’re going to end up with this sticky mess and it’s all over your hands and the airplane doesn’t look very good. So that, that is an image that was given to me over 20 years ago in my operations management training and it’s stuck with me ever since. So apply the technology glue last.

Steven Peijl: 28:34 That’s kind of how you do MVPs, in my opinion.

Jason Kanigan: 28:35 Map it out and do the wireframe or the photoshop type work–

Steven Peijl: 28:42 Right, gluing everything together while you’re throwing it. Basically.

Jason Kanigan: 28:46 And if they like it, okay.

Steven Peijl: 28:50 Assembling your rocket while you’re flying, basically that’s how you do your MVPs. It’s a, that’s also a thing maybe worth mentioning. Like in my opinion, when you’re doing an MVP, it’s okay to get a shit-ton of technical depth. That’s the whole idea behind an MVP. You need to have something that works. Looks cute, don’t like a lot of people like, oh no, it needs to be like crappy now. MVP shouldn’t be crappy because your first impression matters as well. You shouldn’t forget that either. It just needs to be very basic features, but everything still needs to work and be as much free as possible. But you know, doing MVP creation, you rack up a lot of technical depth, which is the whole idea about it. It’s good you do that. But then once you go from MVP to a stable version, that’s of course your hardest barrier ever.

Steven Peijl: 29:42 That’s your survival barrier, your startup phase of the company, uh, where you basically need to rebuild everything because your technical depth will kill you in a, in a half-year to a year if you don’t fix that. So a lot of the times it means starting from scratch–you’ve just proven your stuff so start from scratch. Have a parallel project and rebuild everything the right way because you’ve proven the business model. If you’ve done like this is I think based on talent with your lead developer and slash project management, technical project manager if they’ve done a really good job. And this is really not easy to do. You can still build an MVP which has solid foundation and go from there and just improving it instead of rebuilding it, but, you know, in my experience anyway, it’s, it’s so hard to do that to really get a fast and get technical depth and, but still have a good solid foundation to show you.

Steven Peijl: 30:37 You can just improve and fix stuff versus rebuilding everything from scratch.

Jason Kanigan: 30:43 So tell us about Kyvio a little bit: who’s it for and what problem does it solve for them?

Steven Peijl: 30:48 Sure, sure. So Kyvio, um, we’ve been working on this for quite awhile. So, uh, just on the surface, it’s a funnel builder, uh, to get started with your sales funnels or any funnel or lead gen funnels and everything like that. It’s a membership site builder so you can start your membership site. It’s proven very powerful recurring business model and email marketing as well. But the whole reason why we built Kyvio is that we want to be a platform that facilitates and accelerates global shifts from a knowledge economy where we at right now towards an entrepreneurial economy, uh, we talking, me and my business partner, we strongly believe that the world is gonna change so fast and so much with the coming of artificial intelligence, stuff like that, and that like 70 to 80 percent of the people, all of the people in the world will start losing their jobs, taxi drivers, truck drivers.

Steven Peijl: 31:47 And so even higher level as well, like even in the medical field, a lot of people will lose their jobs because of AI and we kind of feel the solution to against that. Basically, the solution to that is becoming an entrepreneurial economy. I think it’s already happening slowly. What we want to do is create a platform where people can start focusing on their unique superpowers and start, uh, like, you know, creating solutions for other people, for their audience, without all of the technical distractions. So they can easily start going on their entrepreneurial journey. That’s kind of our whole mission with the platform and we do that by offering different modules like the funnel builder. Of course you need funnels to sell anything and then the email marketing is still very important and the membership site business model is just one very powerful to get started because we kind of focus on people that have a lot of knowledge.

Steven Peijl: 32:46 They take teachers for example, there’s a lot of teachers out there in the world and they get paid shit basically like not enough because they are the most important people in our society I think, and they could get so much more value if they teach it to the right people, the people that actually want to have their knowledge and we teach them how to digitalize all of that. How to set up courses online, which is not the same as in real life of course. And then start marketing that using our tools using modern marketing automation tools. Uh, right now we’re not that, but our big goal is to create a enterprise grade platform that has all the fancy and really advanced stuff, but make it simple to use and bring that to the small and mid sized companies.

Jason Kanigan: 33:32 Awesome. Okay. For those who are not watching, if they’re listening. They can’t see that you’re wearing a Kyvio tee shirt. So how do you spell it out? Where can they go? What’s the url they can go to or whatever.

Steven Peijl: 33:43 So it’s called Kyvio, kyvio.com. And the way I spell it is really easy. Know your visitors inside out. So K-Y-V-I-O.

Jason Kanigan: 33:54 Nice. Well Steven, it’s been awesome to have you here. Our guest has been Steven Peijl. Uh, what do you call yourself? Technical superstar of Kyvio is where I’m going to start.

Steven Peijl: 34:08 No, just CTO.

Jason Kanigan: 34:08 Well thank you. We’ve been talking about how to scale from seven to eight figures in your business.

Steven Peijl: 34:14 Alright. Thank you so much for having me. Awesome conversation.

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